Successful UMC Interviews, Part 2

As I see it, there are two possibilities for truly reforming our United Methodist candidacy process.

Option A - Make sure that every single person involved is completely clear as to what the expectations are - candidates, mentors, interviewers, team members, team leaders, superintendents, bishops - everybody.

or

Option B - Allow for a variety of personalities, gifts, skill sets, etc. in our candidates, knowing that some do not interview well, some do not write well, some come across as aloof when they’re really just shy, some express ideas with creative words, some think too deeply to be able to process complicated theological questions in a 30 minute interview session, and some are just simply outside of the box.

In my experience and my opinion, “Option B” is never going to happen. And thus I wrote my previous post, with the thought of communicating clearly what is expected of candidates for ministry. In other words, advocating for “Option A” above.

I am grateful to those who responded to my previous post by affirming that each candidate should know themselves and their calling, and be authentic to who they are. That is exactly what I would hope would happen in this process. My point is, stated rather crassly: authenticity will not ensure one’s approval by the interview team.

There is a vast disparity among conferences, among districts within a conference, among different interview teams within one district, and even among the individual interviewers on one interview team when it comes to this process. Simply put, not everyone is clear as to what the expectations are. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing - I am just naming it.

But good, bad, or indifferent, whether someone is approved for certification or commissioning or ordination should not be determined by which interview team they happen to draw.

I am grateful to hear from a couple of friends that changes to our credentialing process in Missouri are in the works. That’s fantastic, and I am hopeful for really good things to happen.

Creating and implementing a new system is half the work. We then still have to do “Option A.” Everyone has to know exactly what is expected at every level. The best system in the world is only worth as much as how many people know about it. (Does that sentence even make sense?)

And so to clarify, I do not advocate that a candidate for ministry be disingenuous or pretend to be something they are not. I was not trying to coach people into bearing false witness against thy neighbors.

I am an advocate for the candidate first, and then for the denomination. I want all of us to know exactly what is expected in these interviews, and to say that out loud with utter transparency. The attitude in which the interviewer is “in the know” and the candidate has to guess as to what they are looking for needs to go away. Far, far away, and never return.

Successful UMC Interviews

Here is Andy Bryan’s guide to a successful interview in the United Methodist Church. 

It’s just three steps:

1) Be relentlessly positive about your current ministry,

2) Use copious amounts of orthodox Wesleyan terminology,

3) Restate everything you say with “relevant” and “accessible” illustrations.

In the UMC, to get from “not-a-pastor” to “pastor,” there is a series of interviews or conversations we have. First, with our pastor. Second, with our Pastor/Parish Relations Committee. Third, with our District Committee on Ministry (dcom). Some pastors stay there, and return annually for a continuation interview. Others go on to the next interview, with the Conference Board of Ordained Ministry (bom). Of course there is more to it than that, but that’s the rough outline.

The interviews with the dcom and the bom are often very stressful, tense, and create anxiety and tears, which people always say they want to change, but no one ever really does. So I’ll try.

If a candidate for ministry, a licensed local pastor, a candidate for ordination, or any other of our variety of categories of pastor will just follow these three simple steps, I promise you the interview should be a success.

1) Be relentlessly positive about your current ministry. There is a time and a place to express uncertainty, doubt, and frustration about ministry. Every one of us needs to find that time and place and share those things with trusted friends. The dcom and the bom are not those people.

You must speak about fruit, and outward focus, and specific projects you are doing in your community, and “new people” in the church. If possible, tell a story about one particular person whose life was impacted through the ministry of your congregation. Subtlety and nuance are not valued here; be clear and be bold and be precise.

And if there are none of these things in your current setting, you must talk about the potential you see for these things in the future. You must say that your are “planting seeds” or “trying to turn the ship around” or another metaphor that implies a long process that is making incremental progress. And by the way, be relentlessly positive about the potential that you see in this process, too.

2) Use copious amounts of orthodox Wesleyan terminology. There is pretty much a list of terms that the people on these committees are looking for. Things like “means of grace” and “prevenient, justifying, sanctifying” and “open communion table” and “way of salvation” and like that. Know and understand what these terms mean, and use them often.

Some individuals on these interview teams see themselves as guardians of Methodist orthodoxy, so this is no place to be creative or philosophical or try to say things in a new and fresh way. Stick to the script. If you can work it in, quote from one of John Wesley’s sermons or recite a verse of“And Can It Be That I Should Gain.”

If you want to do a more creative, poetic, or edgy theology, do it at another time and place. Do not try to impress the dcom or the bom with new words and phrases. You will not get extra credit for being pithy. Speak Wesleyese. (Weslese?)

3) Restate everything you say with “relevant” and “accessible” illustrations. This is a crucial step. You cannot just leave your ideas in the realm of “by the book.” You cannot just give an academic response and say no more. You MUST then follow it up with “in other words,” and proceed to illustrate the point with language that you would use in a confirmation class, or with people who are brand new to church.

Yes, your interview audience is a group of educated church leaders who are in the loop. But they want to hear that you are able to relate to people who are not. Talk about the way of salvation, then say, “Because life is a journey, right? You go from beginning to end not in a smooth straight line, but in a series of hills and valleys, and the grace of God is with you in every step.” Or some such thing.

Remember that these are church leaders who are panicking about the future of their denomination, and desperate for “new people” in the church. Fair or not, they are looking directly at you to be the one to “save the church,” and to do that you need to be both perfectly orthodox and refreshingly relevant.

And so that’s it. If every UMC interviewee will just do these three things, I promise you your interview will be successful. And if it isn’t, if you get a call that says the committee has not approved you for certification or continuation or commissioning or ordination, you have every right to ask for clear, concise, specific reasons why not. Do not settle for nebulous and confusing answers. If you need to, call the chair of the committee and ask to see in writing the exact reasons you have been denied. Also ask them specifically what the next step is, how would they suggest to go about it, and what the timeline is for completion. Ask for specifics, and do not settle for anything less that utter transparency.

UMC candidates for ministry, this is your life; this is your calling; this is your identity. No, it is not fair for so much to be decided about such significant matters in a mere hour-long interview with a handful of people. But listen, the system isn’t going to be changing any time soon, which means candidates are going to have to be the ones to do so.

Be relentlessly positive.  Be unflinchingly Wesleyan. Restate everything with simple, relevant illustrations. And if you need any help, give me a call and we’ll see what we can do.

Every Means Every

In order to be ordained Elder in the United Methodist Church, I had to answer “Yes” to Bishop Schnase when he asked, “Will you diligently instruct the children in every place?” Needless to say, I answered in the affirmative.

(There were a few other things I had to do, as well, but for now let’s focus on this one.)

I think the intention of the historic question is to ask about the children “in every place you are appointed, wherever that might be.” But I tend to take it further than that, and just let it mean exactly what it says - the children “in every place.”

The children in one place are just as important as the children in another.

As I write this, a friend is preparing to come home from China with a new son. A team from Campbell is returning from a heart-wrenching visit to an orphanage in Haiti. Schools for poor children in Pakistan are being named “Malala Schools” after a fifteen year old hero. And in Springfield, Missouri my family has just received a newborn infant in order to provide foster care for a time.

Every place.

Matthew 18 includes one of my favorite Jesus quotes: “Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.” Could it be any clearer? Welcoming a child is welcoming Christ. (The Greek word translated “welcome” in the NRSV means “to take by the hand” or “to take hold of” or “to receive.”)

Children are more than ornaments to the congregation’s life, they are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Do we welcome them as if we were welcoming Christ? Do we take them by the hand and value them for who they are or do we try to mold them into smaller versions of ourselves?

My prayer, this week and always, is that the church embraces God’s children of all ages, in every place.

Every. Means. Every.

The "Here I Am Lord" Story

A couple of years into my time as a Director of Music Ministry at First Presbyterian Church of Galesburg, Illinois, I began to feel restless. I loved what I was doing with all of my heart and had a deep commitment to the people of that congregation, but I sensed an unknown nudging.

I know now that the nudging was God’s call into ordained ministry. In my experience, I did not encounter a burning bush, that solitary moment of call. Hindsight has revealed more like a series of mini-calls over the course of two years, little whispers here and there. One of those whispers was “Here I Am, Lord.” So here is the “Here I Am, Lord” story…

(By the way, I mentioned this story way back when, when I wrote a two-part post about being called to ministry. Click this and then this to read it.)

For some, “Here I Am, Lord” is an overdone, trite, and rather cheesy hymn. I agree with that in part, on the surface level, but honestly it is a song with a deeper resonance in my life. It truly stirs my spirit when a congregation joins together in robust voice and belts out the refrain with a full organ and piano accompaniment. Often, people who would never ever otherwise do so close their eyes, tilt their heads back, and lift up their hands in the moment. It’s great!

To tell you the truth, I cannot remember if the “Here I Am, Lord” story took place before or after I had announced to the Galesburg congregation my intention to go to seminary and become an ordained pastor. My memory is telling me that it was after I had made the announcement. Either way, it was another nudge in the direction God wanted me to go with my life.

We had a great kids’ choir program at First Presby, from the preschoolers on up. In the upper elementary choir were two Melissas, who also happened to have last names that started with “B.” So we called them “Bucky” and “Missy B” in order to distinguish them from one another. They were wonderful girls from wonderful families, fourth graders probably, very active and involved in the church.

One afternoon, at the end of rehearsal, the two girls lingered for a little while in the choir room as the other kids went down to their next activity. They wanted to ask me a question, they said.

“What’s your favorite hymn?” Missy B asked.

It is a hard question for me to answer, since I love so many. But the one that came to mind most readily was “Here I Am, Lord.” When I told them, they just sort of nodded and smiled and said they were just wondering. We went downstairs, and I really didn’t think very much more of it at the time.

Well, the next week after rehearsal, they hung back again as the rest of the kids left the room. They held hymnals in their hands. They caught me in the hallway just outside the choir area. “Wait,” said Missy B., “We have something we want to do.” She glanced over at Bucky, who kind of nodded and grinned at her.

They opened the hymnals to the page they had marked with their fingers. Bucky nodded and said, “One, two, three, four,” and they began to sing to me. You guessed it - “Here I Am, Lord.” All of the verses.

We just stood there in that hallway as I listened to them sing. They had worked all week, practicing the song so they could sing it their very best. No congregation, no huge pipe organ, no elaborate praise band. It was just two ten-year-old girls singing with the most sincerity and sweetness that I had ever experienced. I was indescribably moved.

The moment they were done was a holy moment. I didn’t want to say anything that might interrupt it. They closed the books and looked at me with shy but satisfied smiles. Missy B’s face was turning as red as her hair, and Bucky breathed out a small giggle.

I was eventually able to say, “Thank you. That was really great.” I smiled at them and bent down for a big hug.

Nudge.

I have wept for love of them…
…I will hold your people in my heart.

Thoughts on the Ordination Process

Why is the candidacy process toward ordination in the United Methodist Church so long and involved?
Because ordained ministry is hard work, and you need a good set of tools in your belt in order to do it.

Why is seminary so hard?
Because ordained ministry requires a depth of theological understanding that ninety hours of master’s degree work can give you.

This is my personal testimony. All I can do is share from my own perspective, and say what my experience has been. I hope that, if your testimony about any of this is different, you will respectfully offer it in the comment section, or post something on your own blog. (For example, read what Brad has to say about his experience.)

I wouldn’t be who I am, nor could I do what I do without having been formed in the crucible of seminary and journeyed the candidacy process together with a group of other Residents in Ministry whom I still count as beloved sisters and brothers. I’m not good enough, smart enough, strong enough to serve Christ as I am called in the church without having had the formation, growth, and learning I was given in the candidacy process and in seminary.

I had a fantastic mentor; I had a covenant group with whom I could share my innermost self; I had relationships with professors, superintendents, and bishops that were collegial and supportive; I had peers who pushed me to excel and who encouraged me when I was sucking rocks; I had Sandy Ward at the Conference Office letting us know exactly what forms we needed to turn in and by when; I had family members and friends keeping me grounded and keeping my priorities straight.

I went into the process as a response to my calling, not in order to figure it out. The candidacy process is not the place to discern your calling; it is where you go in response to it. If you are not called to ministry and certain of that call, wait. Like my Dad said, “If there is anything else that you could do, do it.” And if you are called into a ministry that can be done without candidacy/seminary/ordination, for heaven’s sake don’t put yourself through it!

I dug more deeply into my seminary studies than I had at any other level – high school, undergrad, or master’s – I worked my ass off in seminary. It is a Master’s Degree and it is supposed to be hard; the Church of Jesus Christ/the United Methodist denomination/the souls of God’s children are at stake here, you better believe that I wanted to work hard – for their sake. If I had discerned that I could realize my calling without seminary, there is NO WAY I would have put myself and my family through it! (Although I found that walking the baby in the middle of the night is a great time to study your Greek verb paradigms.)

Instead of worrying about what “the system” required of me, I just did what I thought I needed to do in order to be equipped for my calling. Turned out, it was pretty much the same thing. For example, I found a mentor and was in a covenant group before I learned that those things are required. So I called my DS and told her, and she said “Great! If you found something that works for you, run with it.” My calling is to ordained ministry, and the things I figured I would need to accomplish my calling were there to be found in the candidacy process and in seminary. What a deal!

I am so very proud of the eight years of my life between 1999 when I realized my call into ordained ministry and 2007 when I was ordained elder in the United Methodist Church. And I’ve gotta say, it was fracking hard! Of course it was. It was work, it was struggle, it was formation. I’ve heard people complain about that length of time, but I don’t. I’m grateful to have had that time to prepare.

I’m not saying Deacons and Elders are better than anyone else. This is not an either/or deal here. I’m not saying “licensed/commissioned/ordained” implies “smarter” “stronger” “bigger” or “better” or anything like that. It is just a particular role in the ministry of Christ accomplished through his body, the church. It is a role to which God called me, and I am fulfilled in it, and (I have to confess) proud of the journey I took in order to get here.

And I’m also not saying that after my eight years of candidacy/seminary work, I have finally “arrived” and there’s no more work to be done. Far from it; one of the most astonishing things about going through the process is realizing just how much I don’t know and still need to learn.

And another thing I’m not saying is “Don’t change the process.” I think the process toward ordination can and should be transformed - always reforming, if you will. I am saying don’t make it easier and don’t make it shorter just for the sake of convenience. I don’t want my doctor to have gone through a process that was quick and easy, just so that she could become a doctor sooner and at a younger age; nor would I want my pastor to.

If the process needs to be transformed, let’s get real about doing it. But if all we’re going to do is complain about how long and difficult it is, count me out.



Cross posted here.

Succession - 8 Generations from Asbury

Dig this:

I was ordained by Robert Schnase,

who was ordained by Ernest T. Dixon, Jr.,

who was ordained by Robert N. Brooks,

who was ordained by Edwin H. Hughes,

who was ordained by Cyrus D. Foss,

who was ordained by Edmund S. Janes,

who was ordained by William M'Kendree,

who was ordained by Francis Asbury.

Francis Asbury was ordained by Thomas Coke,

who was ordained by none other than John Wesley.

Ordained

As of June 2, 2007, Andy Bryan is an ordained elder in the United Methodist Church, and a full member of the Missouri Annual Conference!

I honestly cannot describe the power, emotion, energy, passion, and depth of that evening. I will write more about it later. For now, suffice it to say that it was one of the absolute highlights of my life, just after my wedding day and the birthdays of my children. Surrounded by my family, 40 members of my church who made the trek from North Kansas City to Springfield, dear friends, colleagues of the conference ... wow. Tears started up as soon as I knelt. The hands of my grandfather, my father, Bishops Schnase and Palmer, Reverends Sarah Evans and Steve Campbell laid on my head were heavy - literally and figuratively. Reverend Barry Freese said, as I stood before him to receive the stole, "Here it comes!" And I was ordained.

I'll write more about it, I'm sure, but for now about all I can muster is ... wow.

Ordination Checklist is Shrinking!

Ordination is less than three weeks away! Next month at this time, I will be an ordained elder in the United Methodist Church, a member of the Missouri Annual Conference, and beginning my fourth (how can it be?) year in full-time ministry, my eighth year in pastoral ministry, and my thirteenth year in professional ministry overall, counting my years in music ministry.

The latest step in the process was to choose the two elders to come forward and lay hands on my head as a part of the ordination moment. My bishop and my grandfather (retired bishop) and the ecumenical representative and probably a few others I’m forgetting will all be up there already.

My dad, Rev. Jim Bryan, was choice number one, of course. When Erin and I got married, I did not ask Dad to be in the ceremony, so that he could just be Dad instead of “the pastor.” But this is different. For ordination, he not only comes up as Dad, but also as the pastor who was the first and still the biggest influence on my spiritual life. He was my pastor from age five through eighteen, for goodness sake! And so I invited him, not just as my dad, but as one of my most formative pastoral role models.

With my first choice made, I turned to the decision of whom to invite to be the second elder. (A second elder is not really necessary, but each ordinand is allowed two additional elders to stand with the bishops and other big cheeses up on the dais.) I did what I do every time I have a big decision to make – I made a list. I listed all the pastors I knew growing up, and as a PK, I know plenty! I listed pastors who were helpful in my process of candidacy. I listed pastors I consider mentors. I listed a few pastors I just think are cool!

And then I noticed something about my list – all of the pastors I had written down represent another generation. To be blunt: they were all old. :) I hope no one reading this takes offense, but it is what it is. And so it goes. I value their wisdom and the years of dedicated service they have given God through the church, but what came to mind was that perhaps an elder of my own generation would be appropriate for this role. The more I thought about it, the more that made sense to me – to be ordained by a younger elder, so to speak.

And once I came to that realization, it took me like two seconds to decide whom to invite – my dear friend and colleague, Rev. Sarah Evans. We have worked closely together on Missouri Ministers’ School, and the two of us seem to resonate somehow, thinking alike, communicating easily, working well in harmony with each other. However, there was another little bump in the storyline. When I called to invite her, Sarah said that she was touched and honored, but she also told me that she was not intending to go to conference this year, since she is on maternity leave. She wanted to talk it over with her husband and get back to me.

When she called back, though, they had decided to accept the invitation and be a part of my ordination, and I am so grateful. I am humbled to consider how Sarah and Frank changed their plans so Sarah could make the trek all the way south to Springfield just to put her hands on my head along with a group of other people for a few seconds. Well, she does get to participate in the big Ordination Banquet earlier in the evening, so maybe that’s why she agreed! Whatever the reason, I am truly happy that she is a part of it, not only for what she represents, but also just for who she is.

So, check that off the list. Elders selected – check. Hmm, that list is getting shorter and shorter, isn’t it? Pretty soon my ordination to-do list will be down to: Walk up to the stage. Kneel. Receive.

Wow. I’m going to be ordained … this is really going to happen. I want to be able to express how that makes me feel.

It's just that sometimes words don't quite make it, you know?

Whew! Made It Through! - Ordination Journey Nearing the Destination

As it turns out, the road to ordination had an unexpected twist in it for me. But I must have good traction in my tires, because I managed to negotiate the curve and stay on the road. After not one but two afternoons of interviews, the Missouri Board of Ordained Ministry has recommended me for ordination this June at the Annual Conference session! Hooray!

The twist in the road involved my receiving a call on Monday night, after I had spent the afternoon in Sedalia interviewing with the four committees. One of the committees, I was told, had a few more questions they wanted to ask me. The other three had enthusiastically recommended me, but one group had some reservations.

*gulp* (Heart stopped for a minute, stomach churned a bit, blood pressure dropped alarmingly)

They wanted to know if I could drive back to Sedalia (97.3 miles one way) at either 1:30 or 4:30 the next afternoon, Tuesday. To be back at 1:30, I would have to cancel my lunch with my YouthFriend (YouthFriends is a mentoring program in the NKC School district). To be back at 4:30, I would have to cancel my appointment with a woman who had let me know that her long struggle with her relationship with Jesus had led her to a place where she was ready to profess her faith and join the church. Either way, I hoped to be back to church by 7:00, when I had an appointment with a family (3 generations, no less) who wanted to join the church and have the kids baptized. This was the decision I had to make.

I decided on 4:30, told the caller I would take that time, and he offered me some encouraging words as we ended the call and said goodbye.

I was reading a bedtime story to my daughter when the call came in. Somehow I managed to get back to the story, the chapter from "Little House on the Prairie" when Pa puts the roof on. After we prayed and kissed goodnight, I left my daughter's room and went downstairs to wait for Erin to come home from her dance class. When she arrived, I told her and she embraced me and we cried and grumbled and hugged more and and shook our heads and cried more. I called some friends and my Dad, letting them know what was happening.

I didn't sleep well.

I am not going to share the details of Tuesday afternoon with the BOOM. Having had only a day for reflecting on everything, I just have too much unprocessed. And I probably won't post any particulars at all, because it would be tinged with so much of my emotion as to be quite unhelpful. What happened was that I went to the one committee who had further questions, I answered the questions they asked, they must have been pleased with my answers, and the full Board voted to approve my ordination. I was called last night by the same pastor who had called me the night before, but this time he had happier news to share!

The past two days, I have truly come to understand what it is to be loved unconditionally and supported fully, to be held in prayer and compassion by wonderful people. Erin, the light of my life, my true love, my rock, my life-partner forever. My kids, who just knew that Daddy finally had "passed the test" and were so excited they could hardly contain it. My dad, my mom, my siblings, who have put up with me longer than anyone and for some reason still find room in their hearts to love me. My covenant partners, who prayed with me, shouted curses at the wind with me, loved me for me. Colleagues on the BOOM, who gave me thumbs up signals, put their arms around me, prayed for me, affirmed and supported and encouraged me. Church staff and members who spoke uplifting, encouraging words of support, and who gave me assurance. Wow, I'm just about overwhelmed.

And here it is, Lent - penance, fasting, preparation, mortality, confession, repentance. My Lenten journey is going to be a little bit different this year, I suspect. I wonder what new thing God is going to do this year, as we yearn for resurrection. What new thing is God going to do, as creation groans with labor pains? I wonder what new thing God is going to do.

Check your tires for traction, there may be a twist in the road ahead.

On the Way to Ordination

Next week is going to be a biggie. Monday and Tuesday will be my final Residents in Ministry meeting before ordination, and Tuesday through Thursday will be Missouri Ministers’ School, of which I am the chair of the Board of Managers. Both events, which technically do not overlap but practically do, are at Tan-Tar-a Resort in Osage Beach, Missouri. By the time I get home Thursday evening, I expect I’ll be pretty wiped out.

What a ride this trip toward ordination has been, and continues to be! If I am ordained this June, it will have been almost eight years since I responded to God’s call and made the decision to seek ordination. That’s a lifetime. EIGHT YEARS! And now just a few short months (and one high-pressure round of interviews) to go.

To kneel before God, surrounded by the conference, uplifted by my family, fortified by the six generations of ordained Methodist clergy before me, to feel the Bishop’s hands on my head, to bend and receive a stole around my neck for the first time in over a year, to know the church’s affirmation of the way the Holy Spirit is at work in my life – I cannot now imagine what that’s all going to feel like. But I’ll bet you it will be pretty cool.

I may even write a blog post about it. ;)