Successful UMC Interviews, Part 2

As I see it, there are two possibilities for truly reforming our United Methodist candidacy process.

Option A - Make sure that every single person involved is completely clear as to what the expectations are - candidates, mentors, interviewers, team members, team leaders, superintendents, bishops - everybody.

or

Option B - Allow for a variety of personalities, gifts, skill sets, etc. in our candidates, knowing that some do not interview well, some do not write well, some come across as aloof when they’re really just shy, some express ideas with creative words, some think too deeply to be able to process complicated theological questions in a 30 minute interview session, and some are just simply outside of the box.

In my experience and my opinion, “Option B” is never going to happen. And thus I wrote my previous post, with the thought of communicating clearly what is expected of candidates for ministry. In other words, advocating for “Option A” above.

I am grateful to those who responded to my previous post by affirming that each candidate should know themselves and their calling, and be authentic to who they are. That is exactly what I would hope would happen in this process. My point is, stated rather crassly: authenticity will not ensure one’s approval by the interview team.

There is a vast disparity among conferences, among districts within a conference, among different interview teams within one district, and even among the individual interviewers on one interview team when it comes to this process. Simply put, not everyone is clear as to what the expectations are. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing - I am just naming it.

But good, bad, or indifferent, whether someone is approved for certification or commissioning or ordination should not be determined by which interview team they happen to draw.

I am grateful to hear from a couple of friends that changes to our credentialing process in Missouri are in the works. That’s fantastic, and I am hopeful for really good things to happen.

Creating and implementing a new system is half the work. We then still have to do “Option A.” Everyone has to know exactly what is expected at every level. The best system in the world is only worth as much as how many people know about it. (Does that sentence even make sense?)

And so to clarify, I do not advocate that a candidate for ministry be disingenuous or pretend to be something they are not. I was not trying to coach people into bearing false witness against thy neighbors.

I am an advocate for the candidate first, and then for the denomination. I want all of us to know exactly what is expected in these interviews, and to say that out loud with utter transparency. The attitude in which the interviewer is “in the know” and the candidate has to guess as to what they are looking for needs to go away. Far, far away, and never return.

Successful UMC Interviews

Here is Andy Bryan’s guide to a successful interview in the United Methodist Church. 

It’s just three steps:

1) Be relentlessly positive about your current ministry,

2) Use copious amounts of orthodox Wesleyan terminology,

3) Restate everything you say with “relevant” and “accessible” illustrations.

In the UMC, to get from “not-a-pastor” to “pastor,” there is a series of interviews or conversations we have. First, with our pastor. Second, with our Pastor/Parish Relations Committee. Third, with our District Committee on Ministry (dcom). Some pastors stay there, and return annually for a continuation interview. Others go on to the next interview, with the Conference Board of Ordained Ministry (bom). Of course there is more to it than that, but that’s the rough outline.

The interviews with the dcom and the bom are often very stressful, tense, and create anxiety and tears, which people always say they want to change, but no one ever really does. So I’ll try.

If a candidate for ministry, a licensed local pastor, a candidate for ordination, or any other of our variety of categories of pastor will just follow these three simple steps, I promise you the interview should be a success.

1) Be relentlessly positive about your current ministry. There is a time and a place to express uncertainty, doubt, and frustration about ministry. Every one of us needs to find that time and place and share those things with trusted friends. The dcom and the bom are not those people.

You must speak about fruit, and outward focus, and specific projects you are doing in your community, and “new people” in the church. If possible, tell a story about one particular person whose life was impacted through the ministry of your congregation. Subtlety and nuance are not valued here; be clear and be bold and be precise.

And if there are none of these things in your current setting, you must talk about the potential you see for these things in the future. You must say that your are “planting seeds” or “trying to turn the ship around” or another metaphor that implies a long process that is making incremental progress. And by the way, be relentlessly positive about the potential that you see in this process, too.

2) Use copious amounts of orthodox Wesleyan terminology. There is pretty much a list of terms that the people on these committees are looking for. Things like “means of grace” and “prevenient, justifying, sanctifying” and “open communion table” and “way of salvation” and like that. Know and understand what these terms mean, and use them often.

Some individuals on these interview teams see themselves as guardians of Methodist orthodoxy, so this is no place to be creative or philosophical or try to say things in a new and fresh way. Stick to the script. If you can work it in, quote from one of John Wesley’s sermons or recite a verse of“And Can It Be That I Should Gain.”

If you want to do a more creative, poetic, or edgy theology, do it at another time and place. Do not try to impress the dcom or the bom with new words and phrases. You will not get extra credit for being pithy. Speak Wesleyese. (Weslese?)

3) Restate everything you say with “relevant” and “accessible” illustrations. This is a crucial step. You cannot just leave your ideas in the realm of “by the book.” You cannot just give an academic response and say no more. You MUST then follow it up with “in other words,” and proceed to illustrate the point with language that you would use in a confirmation class, or with people who are brand new to church.

Yes, your interview audience is a group of educated church leaders who are in the loop. But they want to hear that you are able to relate to people who are not. Talk about the way of salvation, then say, “Because life is a journey, right? You go from beginning to end not in a smooth straight line, but in a series of hills and valleys, and the grace of God is with you in every step.” Or some such thing.

Remember that these are church leaders who are panicking about the future of their denomination, and desperate for “new people” in the church. Fair or not, they are looking directly at you to be the one to “save the church,” and to do that you need to be both perfectly orthodox and refreshingly relevant.

And so that’s it. If every UMC interviewee will just do these three things, I promise you your interview will be successful. And if it isn’t, if you get a call that says the committee has not approved you for certification or continuation or commissioning or ordination, you have every right to ask for clear, concise, specific reasons why not. Do not settle for nebulous and confusing answers. If you need to, call the chair of the committee and ask to see in writing the exact reasons you have been denied. Also ask them specifically what the next step is, how would they suggest to go about it, and what the timeline is for completion. Ask for specifics, and do not settle for anything less that utter transparency.

UMC candidates for ministry, this is your life; this is your calling; this is your identity. No, it is not fair for so much to be decided about such significant matters in a mere hour-long interview with a handful of people. But listen, the system isn’t going to be changing any time soon, which means candidates are going to have to be the ones to do so.

Be relentlessly positive.  Be unflinchingly Wesleyan. Restate everything with simple, relevant illustrations. And if you need any help, give me a call and we’ll see what we can do.

Thoughts on the Ordination Process

Why is the candidacy process toward ordination in the United Methodist Church so long and involved?
Because ordained ministry is hard work, and you need a good set of tools in your belt in order to do it.

Why is seminary so hard?
Because ordained ministry requires a depth of theological understanding that ninety hours of master’s degree work can give you.

This is my personal testimony. All I can do is share from my own perspective, and say what my experience has been. I hope that, if your testimony about any of this is different, you will respectfully offer it in the comment section, or post something on your own blog. (For example, read what Brad has to say about his experience.)

I wouldn’t be who I am, nor could I do what I do without having been formed in the crucible of seminary and journeyed the candidacy process together with a group of other Residents in Ministry whom I still count as beloved sisters and brothers. I’m not good enough, smart enough, strong enough to serve Christ as I am called in the church without having had the formation, growth, and learning I was given in the candidacy process and in seminary.

I had a fantastic mentor; I had a covenant group with whom I could share my innermost self; I had relationships with professors, superintendents, and bishops that were collegial and supportive; I had peers who pushed me to excel and who encouraged me when I was sucking rocks; I had Sandy Ward at the Conference Office letting us know exactly what forms we needed to turn in and by when; I had family members and friends keeping me grounded and keeping my priorities straight.

I went into the process as a response to my calling, not in order to figure it out. The candidacy process is not the place to discern your calling; it is where you go in response to it. If you are not called to ministry and certain of that call, wait. Like my Dad said, “If there is anything else that you could do, do it.” And if you are called into a ministry that can be done without candidacy/seminary/ordination, for heaven’s sake don’t put yourself through it!

I dug more deeply into my seminary studies than I had at any other level – high school, undergrad, or master’s – I worked my ass off in seminary. It is a Master’s Degree and it is supposed to be hard; the Church of Jesus Christ/the United Methodist denomination/the souls of God’s children are at stake here, you better believe that I wanted to work hard – for their sake. If I had discerned that I could realize my calling without seminary, there is NO WAY I would have put myself and my family through it! (Although I found that walking the baby in the middle of the night is a great time to study your Greek verb paradigms.)

Instead of worrying about what “the system” required of me, I just did what I thought I needed to do in order to be equipped for my calling. Turned out, it was pretty much the same thing. For example, I found a mentor and was in a covenant group before I learned that those things are required. So I called my DS and told her, and she said “Great! If you found something that works for you, run with it.” My calling is to ordained ministry, and the things I figured I would need to accomplish my calling were there to be found in the candidacy process and in seminary. What a deal!

I am so very proud of the eight years of my life between 1999 when I realized my call into ordained ministry and 2007 when I was ordained elder in the United Methodist Church. And I’ve gotta say, it was fracking hard! Of course it was. It was work, it was struggle, it was formation. I’ve heard people complain about that length of time, but I don’t. I’m grateful to have had that time to prepare.

I’m not saying Deacons and Elders are better than anyone else. This is not an either/or deal here. I’m not saying “licensed/commissioned/ordained” implies “smarter” “stronger” “bigger” or “better” or anything like that. It is just a particular role in the ministry of Christ accomplished through his body, the church. It is a role to which God called me, and I am fulfilled in it, and (I have to confess) proud of the journey I took in order to get here.

And I’m also not saying that after my eight years of candidacy/seminary work, I have finally “arrived” and there’s no more work to be done. Far from it; one of the most astonishing things about going through the process is realizing just how much I don’t know and still need to learn.

And another thing I’m not saying is “Don’t change the process.” I think the process toward ordination can and should be transformed - always reforming, if you will. I am saying don’t make it easier and don’t make it shorter just for the sake of convenience. I don’t want my doctor to have gone through a process that was quick and easy, just so that she could become a doctor sooner and at a younger age; nor would I want my pastor to.

If the process needs to be transformed, let’s get real about doing it. But if all we’re going to do is complain about how long and difficult it is, count me out.



Cross posted here.